There is a plug-in from Ciarán Walsh called ProjectPlus. It does SCM badgets (Git and SVN), Finder (color) labels, preserves project state between sessions, and lots more.
13 Aug 2008 | # Ian Beck wrote…
I've been using ProjecPlus for a couple days, and I have to warn folks that it has a few bugs still. When it works, it's great. The subversion icons, pane-based project listing, etc. is all really nice.
However, I'll often open old TextMate projects only to have them show up with no project drawer, no project pane, and a close button that won't work. I have to quit TextMate and restart it before the project shows up modified by ProjectPlus. Haven't tested this thoroughly to see what causes it, but wanted to leave an FYI. Otherwise a great plugin.
13 Aug 2008 | # ice crums - ProjectPlus wrote…
[…] (Via TextMate Blog.) […]
13 Aug 2008 | # Alex Payne wrote…
LIke Ian above, I've noticed some instability in TextMate when running ProjectPlus. Tabs behave oddly, the Git support doesn't seem to work despite setting the necessary environment variables, and projects with many nested folders cause TextMate to be slow or to crash.
14 Aug 2008 | # James Andrews wrote…
It's a nice set of enhancements to Textmate, both functionally and visually (I'm using it along with Thomas Aylott's subtleGradient Leopard Dark 2 GUI Replacement).
However, I've also been having some problems since installing Project Plus yesterday. As with Alex, git support doesn't work for me and Textmate seems less responsive.
Unfortunatekly the main issues I'm experiencing are a bit more serious and occur after I've been using Textmate for a while. These include: certain keybindings stop working (such as the left bracket in html/rails erb templates and toggle comment [Cmd-/]), saving starts to require authentication but still doesn't save and Textmate refuses to quit. Force quitting and restarting Textmate temporarily fixes these issues.
15 Aug 2008 | # Ben wrote…
Haven't had any of these issues yet. Just been loving it!
15 Aug 2008 | # Jonathan wrote…
I didn't really notice any performance hits but I did happen to check activity monitor a few times. On average Textmate took about 25mb of memory on launch and 80-100mb after being open for quite a while with average use. With the plugin Textmate was taking about 50mb on launch and after similar usage was using about 800mb. It's too bad, I liked having subversion status in my drawer and the ability to force it to always open on one side of the window, but I've pulled ProjectPlus out not worth chewing up that much more ram.
19 Aug 2008 | # Russell wrote…
The issue appears only when you launch Textmate by double clicking a project file. If Textmate is already running it works fine. Otherwise the project drawer is gone and the close button doesn't work.
If you uninstall ProjectPlus it might seem like the project drawer is still broke, but that's only because you have to choose to show it again. It reverts back to being hidden.
I hope the bugs get fixed. I really like it, but it's kind of annoying, because I always launch Textmate by opening the project I'm working on directly.
01 Sep 2008 | # Ian Beck wrote…
Recent updates of ProjectPlus have fixed the lack of sidebar thing (although launching TM by opening a project file will still bypass ProjectPlus and land you with a drawer), but here's another thing to note: if you're using ExpanDrive with Textmate and ProjectPlus, you'll need to turn off the SCM badges or things will get very, very slow.
07 Oct 2008 | # Gaël Deest wrote…
Oh no, another post about a third-party buggy plugin, and still nothing about version 2. But it's not like us, paying customers, deserve more than a receipt!
Seriously, I can be very patient if justified, but the lack of information about this "free upgrade" that sounded almost impending 2 years ago is very frustrating. In my opinion, either the Textmate team is secretly preparing the next-generation editor, or Allan is joyfully spending our license fees with no release plan whatsoever.
When and if something happens, there will probably be a 6+-months beta testing phase. By my prevision we won't see a stable Textmate 2 before 2009 Q2, more likely much later. By that time, I'll certainly give my money to a company that DOES care about its customers.
08 Oct 2008 | # Sam Aaron wrote…
we, 'paying customers' paid for TextMate 1.x. For our money, we received TextMate 1.x. I believe that is more than just a receipt.
The fact that TextMate 2 has been advertised as a 'free' upgrade to most TextMate 1.x license owners does not give you any rights to be as forcefully demanding and disgruntled as you appear.
Also, TextMate is more than just an editor – it's a whole community that's very active and busy extending the application through its bundle mechanism. If you're looking for exciting new features, perhaps you might want to get involved! :-)
08 Oct 2008 | # Gaël Deest wrote…
"Also, TextMate is more than just an editor – it’s a whole community that’s very active and busy extending the application through its bundle mechanism. If you’re looking for exciting new features, perhaps you might want to get involved! :-)"
I'm sorry, but some of us actually have a job and no time for that. A job which BTW requires professional and supported tools.
The fact that Textmate 2 was advertised as a free upgrade has nothing to do with my displeasure. I regret having put money into a product that is being abandoned by its author at version 1.
Allan Odgaard may have the legal right to drop the project, it doesn't change the fact that the wonderful "community" that developed around it will be stuck to developing plugins for an aging software until the end of times, without the possibility to take the development over. And that is pretty rude of him, in my opinion.
10 Oct 2008 | # Paul McCann wrote…
What is rude Gaël is your ridiculous set of assumptions and conclusions about Allan is and is not doing. Stop making shit up!
To top that off you imply that the people doing the real work around TextMate have somehow been duped, like some dumb worker ants spending their lives preening and fattening up "queen" Allan. Do you think, perhaps, that people spending a lot of their spare time on this project just might have a better inkling about what's happening than you have? Is that possible? Probable? Definite?
14 Oct 2008 | # Billigflüge wrote…
I gave it a try and have to agree with my pre-commenters. It looks nice, it would be great, if it worked. But it doesn´t. Too many bugs. Hopefully they´ll be fixes soon. In the meantime it´s a waste of time.
24 Oct 2008 | # Christoph Schiessl wrote…
It is probably true that Textmate 2 is overdue. Allan, has announced the next version of Textmate a long time ago and we don't get a lot of information about the feature set or development process. I completely understand why you are upset.
That said, Textmate is to my knowledge still the best code editor for the Mac. As long as Allan's competition doesn't release a better product, there's no need to rush. I prefer to get a stable version of Textmate 2 from day one instead of a crappy beta.
Take your time Allan!
28 Oct 2008 | # Martijn wrote…
Every time I look at this blog I'm hoping for Textmate 2.0 news.. big dissapointment. I wonder if it will become available before Duke Nukem Forever..
04 Nov 2008 | # Elliot Larson wrote…
I'm pretty satisfied with TextMate 1. I can't say that I have any complaints, but TextMate 2 is way, way, way overdue. So, while I don't have any issues with V1, I definitely feel some of the project abandonment vibe. I certainly don't harbor any of the Gaël-style ill will, but I do think now-ish would be a good time for Allan to give the community an update on the status of V2.
04 Nov 2008 | # Sean wrote…
I use TextMate every day and love it, but I would definitely appreciate some news, or even better, a release date.
04 Nov 2008 | # Rich wrote…
This may fall on an unreceptive audience but, it needs to be said.
I've been a TextMate user since day one. I bought on Nov 5, 2004. That's exactly 30 days after the release, so I bought as soon as the trial was up. I'm serial #381. I don't think I can be described as simply a whining, impatient and disloyal customer. I've promoted TextMate at every opportunity I've had. That finally stopped last week.
I can't, in good conscience, recommend a tool that may be dead in the water with glaring omissions. For example, four years ago I could ignore that lack of split views since I assumed they would be coming soon. After four years of development with no update in sight, this is ridiculous.
I now feel more comfortable recommending people take the time to learn Vim than start with TextMate.
Allan, I hope you make me look like a fool but, I won't hold my breath.
04 Nov 2008 | # Michael wrote…
Just thought I'd add that I just bought TM today (Nov. 3, 208), and I couldn't be happier with the purchase. I haven't yet found something as powerful nor as inexpensive. I'm sure there are some things that would be nice to have, but even new apps (such as the forthcoming Espresso) lack some of the power and elegance of TM.
13 Nov 2008 | # Joshua wrote…
I would wager that if it weren't for the ungrateful brats whining about lack of release, we would have more info.
People like you are ungrateful. He's working on it. If he released it broken, you would do nothing but complain about that. When it's ready, I'm sure he will release it. Given that NONE of you know anything of the state of v2, you have no place to talk.
13 Nov 2008 | # emb wrote…
"Given that NONE of you know anything of the state of v2". if you read what they're writing, that is exactly what they are complaining about.
14 Nov 2008 | # Elliot Larson wrote…
Jashua: I'm not sure I follow your logic. So, you're saying if people just say nothing, more info would be made available? Doubt it. I'm also not sure I understand your point about releasing a broken V2. I don't see anyone requesting a broken V2 so we can have V2 in a hurry. People just want an update on the status of V2. How does that make them "ungrateful"? I mean, certainly Gaël is being a little ungrateful, but I don't think the rest of the people asking for an update could be accurately described as "whining brats". Honestly, that's an immature comment on your part (perhaps you're just in a bad mood). It's perfectly reasonable to want an update after 4 years. It's a commercial product that people have a lot of time and energy invested in. People have the right to ask for an update if they want to (and Allan has the right to go on ignoring them if he wants to).
20 Nov 2008 | # Gaël wrote…
I am happy that my comments resulted in such a healthy debate. Now, I want to clarify my opinion.
I don't think anyone of us has to be "grateful" for anything. Yes, Allan brought us a decent text editor years ago. But we paid for it. It was a win-win operation ; both parties went ahead because they found some gain in it. I, at least, didn't get TextMate for free, and I don't see any reason to be grateful to anyone for doing his job.
Now, one can be satisfied of a product, and recommend it to everyone looking for something similar. That is the only kind of "gratefulness" a software seller should seek. If he's looking for affection, fame or pure gratefulness, he should give away his software for free. But if he's selling it, his customers don't owe him anything ; actually, it's the opposite. Moreover, he should be prepared to be confronted to a much more demanding userbase than free (as in beer and speech) software users.
So yes, TextMate as a software is OK (really not more than that, despite the lack of competition) ; TextMate as product sucks.
Does any of you realize that TM hasn't been upgraded for almost a full year now, without any status information ? This looks like a good reason to be angry to me.
23 Nov 2008 | # Tobias wrote…
It's well worth worrying about TextMate's status:
Allan got lost before and it was David Hanson's Get-Real-Kool-Aid that brought him back on track to finally release something.
Just my two cents.
25 Nov 2008 | # Reid Orsten wrote…
I'm license #781. I didn't even get through the trial before I bought it. That 39 euros felt like a lot at the time, because I was in grad school, but I can really only dream of a world where all of my software investments paid off like TM has.
It's entirely possible that Vim will be getting more attention again, because MacVim is turning out really well. But really, regardless of how long TM 2.0 takes, I'll almost feel guilty at getting it for free after I've had so much use out of 1.x.
25 Nov 2008 | # Elliot Larson wrote…
Reid: I agree. I actually don't think TM2 should be a free upgrade. The tool is very inexpensive, especialy when taking into account the amount of use people get out of it.
I'm afraid the promise of giving it away for free to TM1 owners is having a similar effect that rent control has. If keeping something up and improving it doesn't result in commercial gain then there's no return on investment (unless you can derive some personal satisfaction out of it). It seems silly to not charge for an upgrade. It removes a primary motivator and disincentivizes further development.
26 Nov 2008 | # Sean wrote…
@Elliot – Allan, consider charging for it! I'd rather pay for something than get nothing for free.
I'm sure that's the problem — he has no incentive to finish it. I would much rather swallow a changed promise than never see TextMate 2.
26 Nov 2008 | # Antonin Hildebrand wrote…
I had a dream tonight. TextMate was an open source and the world was a better place to live.
29 Nov 2008 | # chemic wrote…
I had a dream that Textmate 2 came out, without getting pwnt! by Coda or Espresso guys.
30 Nov 2008 | # Alex wrote…
If you really think that textmate 2 should be paid for even if you have a 1 license, why don't you start a chipin page so that people can put money towards it being finished?
I for one will put twenty euros down for 2, having bought a license for 1.
02 Dec 2008 | # Christoph Schiessl wrote…
Alex: I noticed, that a lot of people are willing to pay TextMate 2.0. And I understand that there is no incentive for Allan to finish version 2.0, because he promised us that TM 2.0 would be free upgrade for all existing customers.
chemic: TextMate as Open Source Software would be great. I think there would be a vibrant OSS community around it (because most of the existing users happen to be programers anyway).
Considering these two facts, I came up with the following idea: We could collect money from existing users not for the development of TextMate 2.0 but rather for it's release as Open Source Software. Do you get idea?
For example: Say we collect 50,000$ from TextMate users all over the world. Allan gets the money only if he releases TM as Open Source (under GPL v2/v3 or something), including all Source Code repositories and so on.
03 Dec 2008 | # Christoffer Winterkvist wrote…
Christoph Schiessl: Terrible idea, I do not second this… All source is not meant to be free. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for open source but this case is a major exception…
03 Dec 2008 | # Gaël wrote…
I'd be happy to pay 50 bucks for this. However I'm not sure Allan would be interested. ONE Textmate License is almost 48.75 EUR, that is 61.5 USD approximately. Considered that in october 2005, license numbers were > 3000, I'm not sure he would be interested.
04 Dec 2008 | # Christoph Schiessl wrote…
Christoffer Winterkvist: I agree that Open Source is not the solution for everything. However, I can't think of a good reason why it wouldn't work for TextMate. I'm interested in your thoughts on that – could you elaborate on that?
05 Dec 2008 | # Andy Ferra wrote…
I'll admit that sometimes I feel angry about the state of TM2.
However, I don't feel angry because it's not here yet… I feel angry because of the (almost) total lack of communication regarding the current status of the project.
I don't have any illusions about Allan's obligations here. I don't think he owes me anything. He offered a product, I bought it and I love it. Case closed. And I don't think he's obligated to talk to me about what's happening with the, very much anticipated, release of TM2…
…but, I would really appreciate it if he would. I think everyone would.
I just want some facts about what's happening with the project. How far along it is. What kind of features I can look forward to. Some screenshots. :)
I don't have any professional justifications this. As I suspect many people don't. I'm just excited and I'm looking forward to playing with the new toy. :) I love textmate and I want to know what's happening.
That's how I feel about all this.
05 Dec 2008 | # Allan Odgaard wrote…
There is no ETA and no ETA will be announced. I will announce the product when it is ready! I am sorry I made that blog post about 2.0 requiring Leopard, it was not meant as a pre-announcement, I hadn’t even started 2.0 at the time it was written. It was to prepare people for a change in my backwards compatibility policy (starting with 2.0).
I get that people want me to give them updates, but I don’t have an ETA and I do not want to publicly speak about 2.0 features (in detail at least), so putting out such “updates” seems like a farce.
There is however a TextMate 2 FAQ which collects the (very) few things I do say about the project.
06 Dec 2008 | # Arik Jones wrote…
What the hell are you afraid of?
16 Dec 2008 | # Dylan Moreland wrote…
I would assume competitors.
16 Dec 2008 | # Henrik N wrote…
Also customers :)
My impression is that Allan feels that
if he starts giving updates, people will want to know more and more and that will take time away from development, and
he wants the freedom to change TM2 around without people complaining about some promised feature changing or disappearing.
25 Dec 2008 | # Stefan wrote…
I can't also understand what Aalan is worrying about. I bought TM two years ago and was mostly happy with my purchase. But TM wasn't updated for a long time and not even any information about v2 was spread, I just went to Coda.
Sorry. But give me a note, if v2 is released. Hopefully I'll come back and some features I'm looking forward to get are included (a better projects windows; gui ftp support; and so on…)
04 Jan 2009 | # Arik Jones wrote…
Textmate is well beyond the "screw around" stage. Build something, release it. What is so damn hard about that?
04 Jan 2009 | # Phill Kenoyer wrote…
I purchased TM1 before it was released. It had some features that were removed (like the line numbers not scrolling off the screen) that I miss. It also has some issues like the project drawer being ridiculously slow and the refreshing when switch back from another window. If just those three things were fixed in V1 I would be very happy.
I would like to know what other editors are available. So far I know of MacVIM and BB Edit. I really like VIM, but it needs a good project drawer type solution. I can't stand BB Edit.
I am happy with TM1, but not happy enough to not switch if I find something better.
PS, I would be happy to pay again for TM2. Heck, I would even be happy to pay for fixes to TM1.
04 Jan 2009 | # Travis wrote…
@Phil check out NERDTree (http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=1658), preview at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30496122@N07/2862367534/sizes/o/
05 Jan 2009 | # Daniel Beckham wrote…
The problem as I see it and something that Alex obviously can't understand is that, for all intent and purposes, Textmate is a dead project with no active development. No bug fix or minor feature has been released in a very long time and absolutely no meaningful information about what Alex may be doing. Has he abandoned Textmate? Will glaring Textmate issues like the project window ever be fixed? Is he actively working on Textmate 2, or just putzing around with it. Is Textmate even a major part of his professional life? Any, or none of these may be true, but since he is oddly silent about the whole thing, what are we to think?
Your "it's done when it's done" shit may work for people like iD software who seriously produce multi-million dollar projects, but for run of hte mill shareware developers, people like to know their application isn't being abandoned.
I love Textmate and was happy to pay for it, but the project window issues and the serious feeling that the editor has been just about completely abandoned makes me think I need to start looking elsewhere.
The problem for me is that there isn't a lot out there for the Mac.
05 Jan 2009 | # Alex wrote…
First off, Allan is the developer. Alex is… well, I guess that's me.
Secondly, there is a FAQ answering all your questions.
14 Jan 2009 | # Arik Jones wrote…
Alex, I hate to break it to you, but we've all read the FAQ page a million times. It's doesn't suffice Allan's laziness towards the community and eco-system surrounding his software.
How would you feel if Apple literally stopped supporting and developing the Macbook Pro? Yeah, you'd be really pissed.
Developers are willing to pony up the cash to keep this editor in their tool belts. I just wish Allan had the savvy to actually realize that.
20 Jan 2009 | # Flug wrote…
I had similar problems and can find a way just try to find this problem on its own to solve!
I am curious what the future will happen, for any errors of this type to be avoided!
Thank you very much!
27 Jan 2009 | # FredB wrote…
I think the developer of TM needs to take a good look at what is expected from a modern day pro shareware developer and communicate with their community. It's all about community, I can't imagine any kick-ass secret feature that no one else hasn't thought of yet that deserves to be protected this closely. For pity sake take an hour out of every second day and update this blog with information about TM2. If it doesn't come out in 2009 I'm leaving TM. Because NO feature set is going to make me wait until 2010 or later for fixes to 1.57 et al.
Take a leaf out of these guys books and have some respect for your paying community!
27 Jan 2009 | # Allan Odgaard wrote…
FredB: Try to put things into perspective here — you paid me €39 for a piece of software that has seen at least two years of full time development and I do regularly reply on the mailing list plus am available daily on IRC, yet this is not enough, now I have to spend one hour every second day to write an essay about what I am doing?
I am on a sabbatical here, trying to build the next version of TextMate, and while I love the community we have built around the bundles, the IRC channel, and the mailing list, I don’t think I owe the “community of paying customers” (who post the comments you can read on this and the previous blog posts) a detailed report of all my activities.
I fully understand peoples impatience and skepticism about the next version, but the best I can do is just focus on getting it in a state where it can be released, I don’t see much reason to try and nurture a passive community by doing fluff posts about unreleased software, worst-case it will just look like I am selling vaporware.
Also, next version will not be TM 1.x plus a few new features, it is a complete rewrite and everything related to customizations has been rethought, this is why it is taking so long (there are other reasons as well, though), and while it may not be “kick-ass secret feature that no one else hasn’t thought about” lots of editors have clearly been heavily inspired by TM 1.x, so it would be pretty stupid of me to give the blueprints of next version before it is actually shipping.
Adding to that, some of the things I am working on work great as an idea or proof-of-concept, but when implemented there are lots of practical problems (like performance for example), meaning stuff that I am 99% committed to may still end up being pulled, starting to talk about features that might be pulled is a bad idea.
Also, many of the things shine when combined, but is bland when described in isolation, so when I talk about this stuff, I want to be able to talk about all of it, and given the two previous reasons, I think it is still too early to give a detailed description…
It sucks, but that is just how it is!
I hope you guys understand though that I am not oblivious to the situation, so before you post another comment (or send an email) accusing me of being disrespectful toward the community, expressing how pissed or disappointed you are, etc. then please stop and consider what the constructive value of such comment is, and whether or not it will just end up as another negative distraction from what I should be doing (which is coding).
As you can read in the 2.0 FAQ I did recently hire someone to help with the development, so I am now paying thousands of euros each month in an attempt to deliver 2.0 faster, I think that is a much better measure of my commitment than any potential post about how next version will bring awesome threaded searching or split views ;)
29 Jan 2009 | # Adam Craven wrote…
Thank you Allen, really. Every bit of communication from you is good to see.
The problem lies in us not thinking things are going off because, in general, we're just checking this website and see nothing updated. Features aren't important, just movement.
I personally thought your were off traveling around the world – living life up with expensive champagne and hot girls… Unfortunately for you it seems you have been working very hard.
31 Jan 2009 | # john p. wrote…
Hi folk I bought into textmate early and do like it, shan't say why. Seems tough all round, but it's also kind of funny, these posts. Because compared to a broken marriage with children, and the deceit in that, none of you have any problems at all with textmate.
Textmate2 is for Leopard, butI i'm on tiger, have just done a clean install,with tons of ports and unix apps, and cpan modules. I wish 2 would work for tiger. What sop spinn about leapard? Isn't it unix with a window system. Oh dear. It's all Allans fault.
Computers drive me nuts, because writing in sand is easier, and so is talkng to myself.
The main problem as I see it is that we believe that they help with communication. Like it says on the adverts, connecting people or whatever.
I'd rather have vibrant villages and markets, horse and a market garden than all this 'progress' . I'd rather connect with people I can see, or through thinking about them. WHat happend to ESP?
It not progress folk, its all part of the illusion: mobile phones are for people who skate on thin ice, to get them out of trouble, and computers well, i dunno, the best stuff on the web is about …computers. But give me the old manuscripts with some wisdom any day, and I'll rewrite a copy by hand. Or just someone who can tell a story off by heart, or teach me song by repetition.
NO ,computers are enjoyable, but trivial, except for the over-controlling governments and their power mad materialistic adherents, to spin out increasingly meaingless statistics.
Hope that helps folk.
P.S. edit in TM doesn't do spellcheck in editing this post. wont have it.
And, by the ay, what is a hot girl? Your daughter, a wife? or just your average faithless feminist-indoctrinated woman?
03 Feb 2009 | # Adam Craven wrote…
A hot girl and champagne -just a conventional way of communicating 'having a good time', whether or not it's the person's preferred way of doing so.
04 Feb 2009 | # Daniel Beckham wrote…
Good post and you are mostly correct. You don't owe us anything other than the software we paid for and it's your prerogative as to whether you waste time updating a progress blog.
That said, FredB hit the nail on the head. If TM 2.0 doesn't come out in 2009, I'll also be abandoning Textmate and won't be buying it. This isn't a I'm mad at you and being a dick about it thing either. The fact is, Textmate is a great editor, but is geting LONG in the tooth and even with ProjectPlus the project management has such severe limitations that I'm reaching my wits end about deal with large projects. I'll be going back to jEdit. Is it a better text editor? Not really, but I'd rather use something mediocre that doesn't hinder my workflow.
It's up to you how you handle the community, but we aren't slaves to your application and you may find yourself having to market 2.0 to a new group of individuals and not your existing customer base. Do what you want, we don't own you, but you don't work in a vaccumm either.
Customer service is hard isn't it?
10 Feb 2009 | # Joe V wrote…
Wow, I really find all of these posts rather ridiculous. Does TextMate have some shortcomings? Yes. Is it a very good text editor? Yes, I think it is one of the best. You payed 39 Euros for software that you have been using every day for years… Quit crying and threatening. If you payed for it today you would still find it to be a great editor, with no rivals. I think people have this false idea that if software doesn't come out with new "features" on a regular basis that they should abandon it for something new. If it is the best thing out there, why would you abandon it? jEdit.. come on, who are you kidding? Maybe the issue of dealing with large projects is not the fault of the text editor, but is really how the projects are managed. Place the blame where it belongs, as a text editor there is absolutely nothing better that TextMate. New features will be nice if and when they come, but I challenge you to find anything that can do the things TextMate can, as well as it can. You can't… End of story…
10 Feb 2009 | # Arik Jones wrote…
First of all you can import most Textmate commands into Coda. So yes, there are rivals. Secondly, no one is questioning the greatness of Textmate here. However, the tasks we are committed to are becoming more and more demanding as each year passes. They're requiring us to work smarter, faster and cleaner. Textmate is slowing fading in that respect.
Everything was great in 2004. But it's 5 years later and we're looking for ways to work smarter. Textmate just isn't fulfilling that for me any more and it has absolutely nothing to do with how a project was/is managed. People do great work on tools that they're not only comfortable with, but tools that grow with them as well. Frontpage was great in its day, but eventually it just wasn't keeping up with the needs of the industry.
All in all, Alan needs to take Textmate a little more seriously. We've invested in a great piece of software and we'd like to see it grow and get better cause to be frank, it's NOT the best editor (although it use to be). It's a good editor, but it's not best.
10 Feb 2009 | # Allan Odgaard wrote…
Arik: As for TextMate being great in (October) 2004, it was mostly ridiculed back then.
As for me not taking TextMate serious enough, I think you wanted to say I should take public relations more serious (likewise, I also think Daniel meant “public relations are hard?” rather than “customer service”).
But I think I have already expressed my priorities with respect to that in my previous comment. Same goes for “FredB hit the nail on the head”; as I said in my previous comment, I am not oblivious to the situation, to paraphrase; I am at least as bothered as anyone else about the lack of new TextMate innovations, though unlike many of those who comment here, I am patient, because I know I am doing my best, well, except I am wasting valuable time responding to comments here… ;)
11 Feb 2009 | # Luke Worth wrote…
Wow! Is it just me or is TextMate really downloading a minor update right now?
20 Feb 2009 | # guns wrote…
That was a real whine fest! Amazing to think that anybody really thinks they're being helpful in any way by complaining here.
Allan is clearly an intelligent guy, and casting aspersions on his ability to concentrate, his work ethic, or his respect for his customers is not fair or productive. I think, perhaps, you could call into question his judgment, since he clearly should not have posted that blurb about Textmate 2 requiring Leopard. Also, complete rewrites of software have killed great projects in the past, but Allan must be aware of that. He is most likely convinced that re-architecting Textmate for the future is worth all the nagging and moaning from users who are easily distracted by newness. And anyway, we all understand the desire to completely rewrite our pet projects.
22 Feb 2009 | # Roben wrote…
Above +1. My thoughts & opinion as well.
23 Feb 2009 | # Arik Jones wrote…
You're whining about whining. That definitely clears this all up! ;)
All anyone is suggesting is for Allan to not alienate his core customers. An update once a month would do the product good.
26 Feb 2009 | # Roben wrote…
hmmm, I didn't interpret it as whining about whining, but after rereading guns post I do see where that idea came from.
My intention was just to express quiet support for the path & approach Allan has chosen.
01 Mar 2009 | # Sundin wrote…
Well I bought, and used to use textmate, but I've gone to MacVim and haven't looked back. Okay, I might return if Textmate 2 can support Vim's key bindings… ;-)
24 Mar 2009 | # Raj wrote…
At this point, I'd say Allan is suffering from being a brilliant guy with no sense whatsoever for marketing and brand-handling. None. Period. It's as simple as that. And, yes, you'll always have that hardcore, until-the-last-bolt-falls-out user base, so it's easy to fool yourself into believing there's no one trying to storm the gates when you're surrounded by true-believers who can't be told otherwise.
But it's the exterior shells of your user base that are starting to sluff off with every passing month (year?) that nothing is happening other than the rare update to an unrelated blog-post. And it's so easy to keep paid customers happy these days, but SO DAMN HARD to get them back if they finally jump ship.
So, what's done is done: the "pre-announcement" was made in haste and poor judgement. Seriously, if you didn't have any code written at all, you should have never ever EVER said anything. Fine. Lesson learned for 3.0. But now you have to talk. You have to post. Yes, sir, you do. Send an e-mail to your users. Whatever. I don't care if you're the most reclusive programmer on Earth, you've GOT TO hit Send. You're a business owner, and you cannot be silent.
You also have more competitors at your doorstep trying to fill not the NEED, but the WANT (heck, I checked in solely because Espresso 1.0 reminded me of "Hey, I wonder what the heck is happening over at Macromates? Has Allan seen this? Does he have a related or unrelated-but-timely post?). I'd wager the majority of us have gigabytes full of apps that simply died on the vine, and we never want to get caught essentially re-buying software and tranferring/exporting files to and fro. People want to know they're buying into a viable upgrade path for years to come. In a way, when users buy the products of very small companies, the license fee acts as much like stock, except the buyer can never get that money back — they can only hope that the stock they've invested int he company ends up creating better products down the road. And if you don't so that soon, or at least say something to those who are curious, well, I don't envy you the task of keeping up license sales to support ongoing development.
In the end, of course, it's your choice, but even I've grown cynical of TextMate's silence, falling into the "I'll believe it when it's shipping" camp. I want good apps to continue in the Mac realm, and yours is one of them, but I know full-well that if you don't sell enough to keep food on the table, it can be the best app ever and it will still die.
26 Mar 2009 | # Arik Jones wrote…
Raj has said what I couldn't say as eloquently. Since Allan is paying Mr. Walsh to continue development, what does that guy have to say about it?
27 Mar 2009 | # Tobias wrote…
Is it coincidence that Mr. Welsh stopped blogging exactly the same month than Mr. Oddgard? Really, I don't want to feed any conspiracy theories, but maybe the preliminary implementation of world domination isn't as easy as they thought?
27 Mar 2009 | # Arik Jones wrote…
Wups, sorry. Spelled the last name wrong. Tobias has the correct spelling. :)
08 Apr 2009 | # Watts wrote…
No, actually "Walsh" is the correct spelling, just to be pedantic.
I'm still using TextMate in part because there are few other editors that do things I've come to take for granted with it (the smart indenting is a big one), and in part because in the middle of client projects I simply can't afford the down time to get comfortable with another editor.
But… geez. Raj hits a few nails right on the head: Updating your users occasionally is not "wasting time." It's good business sense. It's really, really important. The posts to the mailing lists? With all respect, they don't count; they're only visible to the most dedicated TM users, and they don't tell us anything about development status. We need to know something about development status. Really.
It'd be great to see another update to the current TextMate code base, maybe a bump to 1.6 — and to announce that TM 2.0 is going to be a paid upgrade. Yes. Say you're going to charge people money for this upgrade. Say it's going to be worth an extra 10 Euros or whatever. Give yourself reason to start getting public betas out.
I don't think TextMate is "dead," and I don't doubt Odgaard and Walsh are coming up with terrific stuff behind closed doors. But users need to have a reason to care that they're still there and still doing terrific stuff. That means communication.
What will kill TextMate is having people stop caring. This already happened once to a great text editor I used 10 years ago (Pepper).
13 Apr 2009 | # Andrew wrote…
I know a lot of people are starting to look for alternative, well maintained, editors/IDE's. I surely am.
Also, because of this "radio blackout" programmers are working on new alternatives who might replace textmate completely. As Watts mentioned, you don't want your customers, who once were an enthousiastic community, to stop caring..
I hope we hear from Allan soon.
15 Apr 2009 | # Arik Jones wrote…
Espresso and Coda retain a lot of the Texmate dissenters. I bought of a copy of Espresso and will probably grab Coda soon as well. That's a total of $180 I'd rather spend on a better Textmate.
15 Apr 2009 | # Peter wrote…
Ah, yes the threats of abandoning to another editor. I'm sure these really motivate Allan — clearly folks here have no idea how many licenses he's selling, probably even this very minute, for software the folks commenting here can apparently no longer bear to use. Though Allan is too nice to say it, if I were him, I prefer you buy someone else's stuff and harass them.
17 Apr 2009 | # Arik Jones wrote…
We pay for, work with and mount our professions on his software. In a lot of ways we have invested much more than our money into Textmate. I still use Textmate simply because I have to, not because I love or enjoy to.
I don't owe him a lack of curiosity about where this product is going. But if you're going to charge money for your products, pay attention to your damn customers.
17 Apr 2009 | # Allan Odgaard wrote…
People, please read my comments above before you post another “where is TM 2, and why doesn’t Allan say anything”-comment — I really do not want to close or delete comments, but this here is getting tiring.
I know some of you want me to post a blog entry dedicated to 2.0, I may do that, but please let me do so in my own time¹ — I have commented here on the situation and there is a FAQ dedicated to 2.0. I did say (in 2007) that you should put TM 2 up there with Duke Nukem Forever, as I knew it would be a giant undertaking and struggle to realize my vision for the next version of TextMate, and in all honesty, having people bitch is not exactly making this any easier, instead it just makes me question if having a job so exposed to public criticism is really worth it.
Fortunately though my motivation comes from my own desire to see ideas turned into working code, so there is little chance I won’t come through with it (and this sort of answers those of you who think it is lacking economic incentive that is holding 2.0 back — it is not; I won’t deny that getting money is nice, but it is not a motivator (for me), though it works nicely as compensation for “having to take crap from users” :) ).
The above was maybe a little skewed; be aware that I am very aware and appreciative of the many users who are not the “loud minority” and I am thankful also to this “loud minority” for having sponsored my project, even if there is a disconnect between what I believe I sold them and what they think they bought.
¹ I am a slow writer, and I have a dozen other things I also want to write (which I feel would be more useful than just repeating that TM 2 is still not released — I think it would be better to do a TM 2 post when there is actually something more to add, i.e. when I start to form an idea of an ETA or am willing to document some of the new things I plan to introduce).
18 Apr 2009 | # Mathias wrote…
Wow, that post really rubbed me the wrong way. Screw you too. I've fuc#in had it with this crap. Yes I'm a bit drunk right now. Sorry, but In vino veritas.
19 Apr 2009 | # Alex wrote…
Patrick Rothfuss' first novel was released in 2006. Amazon incorrectly listed his second book's release date Spring 2009. Consequently, Rothfuss' has been receiving irate email. His response to his readers: http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/blog/2009/02/concerning-release-of-book-two.html
I imagine Allan's blog post will look pretty much the same. He can't say more than he's already said. He is working on it. Eventually it will be done. Personally, I am getting by just fine with TM 1.x, it does everything I need and where it doesn't I can live with it. That's more than I can say of any other editor on this platform. Would I like to see TM2? Of course! But I'd rather Allan take his time and get it RIGHT, than succumb to pressure from users and push out something he isn't proud of.
22 Apr 2009 | # Elliot Larson wrote…
Yeah, we're kind of running in circles here. I think there was some valid concern about the status of TM2, and in my mind Allan has addressed those concerns… a few times. What we need now is a good change of subject. Perhaps a new blog entry on something else more uplifting could take some of the attention away from this thread. Just a thought.
@Allan – This could be overkill, but you might also consider hiring a PR professional to help deal with stuff like this. It's frustrating and, as you've pointed out, it distracts from the work at hand. If I were in your shoes, I think I would be outsourcing the frustration right about now.
23 Apr 2009 | # Arik Jones wrote…
"He can’t say more than he’s already said. He is working on it."
That statement defeats itself.
24 Apr 2009 | # Boris wrote…
You created a great product, in my opinion one of the greatest developer's tools ever. Do not feel frustrated, distracted, or concerned with all the buzz. If it was not a great product there would not be a buzz about it and I think you are doing the right thing of taking time to make it perfect. As long as we know you are working on it it is totally good enough for me. I just hope you have enough money to sustain you at work and please do not hesitate to post a request to sponsor you – I'll be first in line.
Do not spend time answering this if it would make TM 2.0 arrive 5 min earlier. TextMate is the king.
25 Apr 2009 | # Arik Jones wrote…
There is no such thing as "perfect" in software development. There is only software that adds value.
26 Apr 2009 | # Paul McCann wrote…
Arik: you're sounding like a petulant 12 year old. Snipe, snipe, whine, school-ma'am-ish corrections, snipe, snipe, whine. Wouldn't you be better making use of your $180 mega-investment in Espresso and Coda?
Allan has made it perfectly clear what he is intending to do (re-read the above entries if required), and he's also been quite forthright in mentioning that user griping has the opposite effect of what you're seeking. Bleating about how you would like him to run his business, or about the fact that every other software developer does things differently (which is nonsense: witness MacRabbit's customer dealings re Espresso over the last 12 months or so), or about what you're owed because of your investment in Textmate is just so much hot air.
Use the tool you have: a shiny new one will arrive, and might even produce some pleasurable surprises. All this "are we there yet? where are we? tell me! I demand it! Now! You must tell me when it's coming. My business depends on you… You owe it to me" just leaves really bad tastes in everyone's mouths. Patience, grasshopper.
27 Apr 2009 | # Boris wrote…
@Arik Jones "perfect" is a loose term that is meant to describe the state of the app where the developer is happy and proud to release it. It is up to Allan to decide what perfect means. That is all I wanted to say, so if you mind other "inaccuracies" feel free to to point them out as well.
@Paul McCann could not agree more :) and also, remember that expectations reduce joy, so let's just wait and be pleasantly surprised when it comes.
27 Apr 2009 | # Luke Scott wrote…
I love TM 1.5, and I could not imagine using any other editor. I do, however, have a few concerns.
1 – The last blog entry was in August 2007. It has been 7+ months since the last entry. And it's been even longer since the last one about TM 2. How long does it really take to make a blog entry? All I'm asking is a blog entry once every three months at least about how things are going, no matter how scarce the details are. It would make me feel like the project hasn't been abandoned.
2 – Allan, you said that TM 2 will be a free upgrade, back in 07. To be honest, I got my moneys worth with TM 1.5. I'm more than willing to pay an upgrade fee.
3 – If money isn't the motivation, but TextMate isn't your job, you should really re-evaluate your priorities. TextMate is crucial to mine, and I use it every day. As I said, I'm more than willing to pay upgrade fees. You should even consider putting up a recurring donation button on the site. I'd be willing to donate, and I'm sure many other people would be to if it meant more focus on the project. And with this economic situation, you must need some sort of income.
28 Apr 2009 | # Allan Odgaard wrote…
Luke: I got up this morning, read your comment with the other emails that had arrived through the night (I get blog comments via email) and sort of decided I shouldn’t answer.
Then went on to reading news, but I just couldn’t concentrate. My mind kept returning to your comment (which is not unusual, i.e. my mind returning to something I read earlier, especially blog comments “asking questions”). Should I just put a “more than an hour” as reply to your “how long does it really take to make a blog entry?”, but that would feel abrupt, so should I elaborate on it, should I tell about the blog entries I already did start but never completed, how I don’t want to just post “not done yet” because that is so extremely redundant and IMO stupid, but then shouldn’t I just link to my previous comment where I already sort of say this and that I will post one “in my own time”, should I explain all the other things I need to do every single day which is also distracting me from work, but where you can also ask “how long can it really take?”, should I give examples of how quickly you can burn through 8 hours (a normal working day) with these distractions?
The above is badly structured and I don’t feel I really made my point, yet I spent almost an hour on this, maybe that info helps make the point — i.e. I can’t just write something quick and post it, and I can’t just read a comment and let it be…
Elliot: For a PR person to be “effective” (from my POV) I would have to see filtered “feedback” which feels a little wrong… but I do like the idea of it :) Hopefully though there will be less need for such filter after 2.0 is out.
29 Apr 2009 | # Jamie wrote…
Allan, all that I hoped to see when I read this thread was "yes, I'm working hard on it". I am delighted to find that you are.
One idea: put a little badge on your site that says "TextMate 2: We are working hard on it!". Perhaps that would help your visitors feel at ease.
All the best!
29 Apr 2009 | # Allan Odgaard wrote…
Jamie: That’s a great idea! I’ll seriously consider adding that, thanks!
29 Apr 2009 | # Mark Parson wrote…
Keep up the good work Allan, I'm sure 2.0 will be great when it's released.
29 Apr 2009 | # Arik Jones wrote…
It's really difficult to believe you spend any more than 30 minutes on such apathetic responses. You can sum up every response you've made in this thread with the following:
"I don't care about my customers enough to communicate effectively with them".
As a software developer you have 3 channels of communication. You either release something, fix bugs or you write a blog post about new developments (no matter how small they may be). Moaning and groaning about how it's "so hard" to write a blog post isn't exactly what customers expect when it comes to keeping them interested and passionate. And since you don't release anything hardly at all, customers don't have much to hang on to.
With a product like Textmate, it's core developer(s) ARE the attitude of the product. If that attitude is one of laziness and apathy towards it's customers, your customers inherit that attitude. They eventually get lazy as well and eventually move on to something else. If your priorities are elsewhere, then so will your customer's priorities stray. In your case, they will stray to a different product.
The fact of the matter is that people want to pay you money for a great product and not so much a perfect product as there is no such thing. What you see as "wasting time" is valuable information for your customers. Information that keeps customers swiping their credit cards for new releases. That's just good business sense.
When you communicate well and include your customers, they will have no problems taking care of you.
Arik: It took that long because I went back and forth on all the thoughts I mentioned, and did write more than just the sentence about each thought that ended in the comment — the “roughly an hour” includes the time I spent before writing the comment where I tried to do something else, but couldn’t really focus on it.
After 20 minutes writing the reply to Luke I did think that I should stop putting more time into it, but I did not want to post what I had written, yet I had to post some reply to get his “how long can it really take?” off my mind…
Of course not everything takes me this long to write but blog posts tend to take me much longer — I probably write 10 times as much as I actually post, and I start a lot of posts that I never publish because I am not satisfied with the overall “message” (for lack of a better word).
It is ironic that you interpret all my posts as me being apathetic toward my customers etc. yet you fail to realize the extreme burden which is put on me exactly because tens of thousands of people will read what I write and judge me based on their interpretation…
Anyway, Arik, while your last comment is certainly the most constructive from you so far, we are still going around in circles. Can’t we just agree to disagree (about how I run my business)? It’s not like I am being dishonest about it, so there is nothing for you to uncover here, and try to read your own comments, I am not entirely sure what your exact point is; you think I am apathetic toward customers, that I don’t take TextMate serious, that I need to do this and that to run my business, that you don’t actually like the product, etc. — yet I actually do spend time replying to your comments (explaining what my priorities are), I am taking TextMate development serious in the sense that I prioritize it over posting to the blog, etc. It all seems to boil down to lack of a blog post, but haven’t I said far more here than such blog post would do? And isn’t this just as official and available as a blog post?
Btw: Stop twisting my words, I never did any »Moaning and groaning about how it’s “so hard” to write a blog post« — I mentioned that lack of blog posts is a combination of me being a slow writer and me wanting to put actual stuff into a post about 2.0, not just say that it’s not done yet.
30 Apr 2009 | # Peter wrote…
Arik is clearly a troll. Don't feed the troll.
30 Apr 2009 | # Arik Jones wrote…
I figured the "troll" insults would come out. Where's my hat?
30 Apr 2009 | # seyDoggy wrote…
I just wanted to chime in Allan's behalf. Ta say Allan doesn't care about his customers is absurd. To be honest I can fully understand why TM2 is "delayed" with all the support he gives in IRC and in the TM mailing list. The number of times where Allan has worked through some of my issues right then and there on IRC… and you say he doesn't care??
Allan is vocal enough if you know where to find him. The same goes for Ciaran.
I too am anxious for TM2, but not so much for the new features. I fine building whatever snippet I need when I need it. What I am anxious for is the continuity between 1.5 and 2, how would my current workflow change, would the uptake be smooth or labored… So do I mind that Allan is taking a while? Not at all, in fact it eases my mind somewhat thinking that perhaps he is making the upgrade path as smooth as possible for those of us who rely on TM like it's our right arm.
02 May 2009 | # Luke wrote…
Alan, I think you have said more than enough on the matter. I'm a happy textmate 1.5 user who will be delighted when textmate 2.0 beta turns up. Whenever that may be. Ignore the trolls and get back to doing what you do best.
03 May 2009 | # Ryan wrote…
That dude is a troll but a blog post once a month telling us you are alive would be nice. Sometimes when I'm using Textmate I feel like I'm using a dead product. I know there has been a recent patch but still.
I think the OSS community has raised the bar as to what SEEMS like a living project.
Not complaining, just a comment.
08 May 2009 | # Watts wrote…
Ryan's comment probably hits my main point. I appreciate that blog posts take time to write and that website-updating time is time away from development and so on and so forth, but like it or not, web sites and blogs that don't get updated look abandoned. And that makes people nervous.
I don't think this has anything to do with "not caring about customers," and I don't think Macromates needs a public relations employee! I'm just saying that visible communication and progress matters. Allan brought up the Duke Nukem Forever comparison again in a recent comment here — well, DNF's development house, 3D Realms, just shut its doors. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this perhaps suggests that DNF is not a good role model to follow. :)
22 May 2009 | # nate beaty wrote…
i too am just glad to hear you're working on TM2.
it really comes down to the fact that you can't please everybody, and unfortunately the internet is prone to amplify the voices of a-holes and trolls. you could very well release TM2 and have an equal number of folks raving about your audacity to release something not as clean & brilliant & easily-customizable as TM1. how dare you! i paid 50 clams 5 years ago and this is how you thank me? etc.
i've been keeping an eye on Espresso, but i could easily see using it alongside TM2 (which i'd also pay for, i've got 4 years of daily use out of TM1! #3635!), especially once Espresso picks up some of CSSEdit.
you've said your piece, try and ignore the jerks. i'm sure you're aware there are thousands of happy folks to every vocal commenter.
25 May 2009 | # Joe wrote…
Will TM2 have elastic tabs? Thanks.
03 Jun 2009 | # Yann wrote…
I'm a long time TM user… user #2532 to be precise ;) Can't leave without TM, made all my friends switch to it… I have a couple bundles (HTML + CSS) available for it. It's the one program that's ALWAYS open on my mac. And I don't mind that much the lack of updates. It worked fine when I bought it and it still does work just as fine now…
That being said, putting TextMate aside, and just considering Macromates the Company, I think just by your users' feedback, it should have become clear to you by now that you're doing something wrong about your PR… I think it would be a good idea to consider it an integral part of your business. I'm not saying you have to post about TM 2.0 every 3 months or anything like that… But, for instance, you could just slightly reword your first long comment in this thread and make it a blog post (so people would actually find it!). That would most likely be sufficient for most people. Just redirecting your energy from posting comments on this unrelated thread to making real blog posts would go a long way… I understand you think your time is better spent working on coding, but that's a programmer's perspective, not a business owner's perspective… Granted, you have such a solid product that neglecting the business side of things might not affect your bottom line… but why take the chance?
I think you used the words "waste of time" while referring to blog posts etc… That's pretty reveling… In absolute terms, I agree. But your customers are people… with feelings… I don't think it's a waste to dedicate some of your time to just making them happy. It might seem silly, counter-productive, etc… but it's not.
Anyway, I think you're brilliant, and I don't really care if you don't have great "people's skills" ;) I'm just watching from the sidelines you and the angry customers going in circle, each ones making valid points and not understanding each others… so I thought I'd chime in to say that I think you're the one who should brake that circle and give them what they want. Ultimately, even if they are completely wrong (I don't think that's the case, it's more of a different perspective), it doesn't matter. Just put on your business hat for a little bit, put the argument to rest by giving in a little, and then you can get back to work without distractions like angry blog posts in the back of your mind.
Just my $.2, take it for what it is ;)
04 Jun 2009 | # Andy Ferra wrote…
08 Jun 2009 | # Kaelig wrote…
Yann sait it all, just keep on doing the way you do, we have faith in you and in the future of TM.
09 Jun 2009 | # Vlad T. Foch wrote…
Well, it's a good thing that Allan decided to make TM2 Leopard-only: Snow Leopard comes out in a week, and as soon as we all install it, we can stop thinking about TextMate. Congratulations, Allan, it has taken you longer to update a text editor than for Apple to update, test, and release their entire OS (including a complete Finder rewrite)!
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